I know epicmafia isn't the best place for political discourse but this is the platform I have and I consider you friends enough to value your opinions and I want to hear your thoughts.
We have been blind. That's a fact. Liberals along with the media, celebrities, academics, polls have all had a skewed view that we live in a world where social values like political correctness, gender/sexuality equality, women's rights are not nearly as widely accepted as we thought. Whenever Trump supporters shouted "The media lies!" they weren't wrong. In their delusion, liberals espoused a champion that was simply a poor candidate to appeal to the working class.
On Tuesday, anyone who felt ostracized by an establishment that took their jobs, angered by corruption, and frowned upon political correctness joined the people with conservative values, christian values, along with (let's face it) vehement racists, and together formed a majority that elected Donald Trump as President of the United States.
Now, Clinton supporters are angry. Minorities are rightfully scared. Trump supporters are content but annoyed at the reaction. Some however are gloating unabashedly while others are taking it as vindication of violence against minorities.
Where do we go from here?
To the people that voted for Trump: Do you acknowledge Trump has made misogynist and sexist remarks? Are you okay with him representing us or do you wish it was someone else? Should Trump threaten immigrants, LGBTQ ppl, or muslims, will you stand by them or support that choice?
To the people that voted Clinton: Do you think Clinton would have been a progressive President? Do you think there was better candidate? What will you do for social progress in the next four years?
To the people that voted 3rd party: Do you regret you decision or stand by your conscience. What will you do for 3rd parties in the next 4 years?
To everyone: How do we reconcile our differences to avoid violence? How do we avoid having an election like this again?
Yeah, I agree completely. I didn't say Trump would be impeached (god forbid), I just said it was possible. Even if he is charged, I don't believe Congress would go through with impeachment, much less removal from office; it just doesn't sound politically desirable at the moment for any of the congressmen. I do expect quite a bit of news to come out from it though, so brace yourselves.
And I also agree with what you say about Trump's views; I paid close attention to what he said on LGBT rights, and he's been consistently saying that he'd prefer it if social issues were decided by the states. It's possible that he could form a court majority to overturn Roe v Wade, but suggesting that he would ban gay marriage is fearmongering. I do believe he's going to be a tad flaky with LGBT issues, though.
Trump won't be impeached and gay marriage won't be restricted or repealed, it's all smoke and mirrors made to scare us when he hasn't even been officially sworn in yet.
I think we will just have to see, but I think Trump's views on the matter are not to have the government intervene on things such as the Roe v. Wade decision and other issues, but have individual states decide on their own what they want or don't want.
You're right about Trump's social views, Chaika, but his consistent promise of overturning Roe v. Wade is a huge goal for social conservatives and has been ever since the decision was made. Oddly enough, Trump used to be pro-choice despite disagreeing with the practice himself.
Pence is also as conservative as they come. Pence isn't Trump, but I've heard that Trump could very well be impeached if Congress wanted that to happen; one legal professor from Utah argued that there's enough evidence to charge him on fraud and racketeering, which are both federal and state felonies. I wish I knew enough about law to evaluate his arguments, but if he's correct, we could see some real drama soon. Hillary was regarded as the legal baggage candidate this cycle, but people seem to have forgotten that Judge Curiel set up a trial on November 28th.
mmm yeah you're right, i have been conflating trump with pence. my bad! but my point still was that i think i might have seriously considered voting for someone like rubio. unfortunately i didn't pay as much attention during the primaries as i should have so i could be wrong about that as well
and i'm not sure if i agree with you about bernie-- he focused so much on middle and lower class americans that i think the electoral map would have been really surprising. i still think rural areas would have gone for trump, but that the rust belt might just have stayed blue, depending on whether or not he could convince them to get behind the whole socialism thing. pitting him against trump would have been interesting to see. besides, non-domestic issues really didn't seem to be important to many voters this election cycle.
Bernie is so far left with no ideas other than domestic ones that he would not have been able to pull the independents. I think people massively overrate how far he would have actually gone if he was the Democrat nominee.
Trump on the other hand, is one of the least conservative republicans out there, he only seems more conservative than he actually is because of what some view as extreme when it comes to immigration of illegals. He's been saying the same things now as he had been in the 80s.
I take this to mean that Trump fully intends to follow through on his environmental policies. I believe this is perhaps the most unforgivable thing he could ever do-- you can see my rant on page 4, but to make a long story short, I believe his energy and environmental policies will only serve to exacerbate the very serious problem of climate change.
Is there anything we can do to mitigate this? Can enough people change their lifestyles enough to offset the damage? Can someone possibly change Trump's mind? What can we do? :c
i voted hillary because she seemed at least competent and because i support the democrats' platform. don't really support the party itself right now because of all the corruption with the DNC stuff, but ideologically, woo woo go blue
there was nothing about trump i agreed with except for the anti-establishment stuff, but like....the stuff that came with that? no way fam. especially mike pence. on that note, let me tell yall, i live smack in the middle of rural white evangelical america, and they all are almost hoping trump gets impeached so they can get pence in office and repeal marriage equality and roe vs. wade and get to keep their guns. a ton of people i know are two issue voters: they will vote for whoever is the most conservatively evangelical, and for whoever will let them have their guns. they are disregarding everything else trump said because of those two issues, so i guess the upside to that is that at least their reasoning wasn't just "i hate everyone who isn't like me".
if it had come down to bernie sanders and a less conservative republican i would have had a much harder time making that choice (love bernie and his social views, don't love his economic ideas quite so much) because i feel like HRC and trump really do represent some very ugly parts of our country. still, one more corrupt politician vs someone with no political experience and dangerous rhetoric? it wasn't a fun choice, but it also wasn't a difficult one.
i had a harder time deciding between clinton and voting libertarian, but realized in the last couple of weeks before the election that despite the increase of interest in third parties, there was no point in voting johnson
disclaimer: im bad at understanding politics if i've just said something dumb please forgive me
disclaimer 2: i didnt read the rest of this thread im tired
The only way america or any other country could possibly be better is if people put aside their differences and bias for what we all believe is the greater good.But since we need the democratic process at least in america to elect people to solve our problems for us instead of rising up ourselves just makes me think we wont be ready to make a worthwhile change for a while.
I think you're right that not using a constructive tone doesn't change the validity of what you're saying. The tone argument is another logical fallacy, after all.
HOWEVER, I think it's important that people attempt to be constructive. A rude tone might not change the facts, but it does influence whether or not people accept them. Being hostile does little other than shut people out or drive them on the defensive.
[quote=BaneofMafia] i don't really care about being "constructive"
it not being "constructive" does not change the fact that that equation is hecking stupid and people who do not realize it are in turn hecking stupid
i dont really care who says it, either, it's just that people should try to be less blatantly stupid and try to think in at least 1 and a half dimension
that mostly liberals fall into this example is purely coincidence
I'm gonna weigh in on the LGBT/Pence argument. I'm unsure of LGBT rights under Trump for a variety of reasons, largely because of how flaky he's been with them during the cycle. He's promised to end LGBT discrimination on one end, but also promises to be a champion of religious liberty on the other. You could dismiss the latter as pandering, but he did happen to promise to rescind Obama's bathroom order at an event and sign the FADA right on his website. Concerning, yes, but he also said that he would not actively push for the bill. As a whole, I don't think we'll have to expect the worst case scenario -- Trump might not strongly support gay rights, but he's not anti-gay either. I don't expect him to stand up for us, but I'm willing to give him a chance to pleasantly surprise me.
What bothers me about Pence has less to do with his personal convictions (though admittedly that's what made me pay attention to him) and more to do with his intention of being a "very active" vice president, citing Cheney as a role model. Given Trump's lack of experience and Pence's own establishment ties, it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of the heavy lifting were delegated to him. Cheney was particularly cold-blooded though, so I'm unsure if Pence has the character to follow in his footsteps. In any case, his statement suggests that he'll make serious attempts to make Trump's policy promises palatable to legislators (or vice-versa?) and perhaps influence him somehow
Understanding is a priceless virtue. If we expect to repair our divisions, understanding is the tool that will lead to progress. Both sides need to understand each other. We need to understand why this outcome was never predicted.
Clearly "the media" (an ambiguous term at best) didn't do a good job on fully representing this nation. So how do we change that? One of the first steps in repairing the divide is to make sure everyone's voices are heard, not just the loudest voices.
Protests are coming from the loudest voices. They won't change anything; there is no referendum to recall the presidency, nor will it be possible to impeach a president-elect before he actually is inaugurated. Our next course of action must offer support, not hostility. We won't get anything done through screaming matches, we never have before.
If you know me at all, you know I'm very left-leaning and it's pretty obvious who I voted for, and it's also obvious that I have never supported our new president and I never really will, in terms of policy. But if we don't try to bridge the gap that extremely polarized politics have created, neither side will find the solution they're looking for. We need to start looking for compromise and not for a 100% win.
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as another aside, if you have known me at all here for the past 3 years you've known me to be pretty extreme. but i have come to appreciate centrism and while im still very leftist i think its important to consider the needs of both parties in conjunction rather than the needs of one or the other. but anyway not about me.
it shouldnt be so easy for all these young people to completely distance themselves from their republican family at thanksgiving. we shouldnt have to resort to violence, or screaming at each other at the least. diplomacy IS an effective policy, and we need it more than ever within this country or theres gonna be a civil war or something.
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Thanks for sharing. I also don't like Trump, but I am understanding why people voted for him and the answer isn't the same for every supporter.
I think for most people it really was about disdain for the one of the choices. In our division, we elected a man with no political experience and that no one really understands completely. We can only hope he does propel us forward and together, as a country, fight any steps backwards.
I value other’s opinions as much as I want them to value mine. It’s annoying that so much of the outbreak has been people claiming that any trump supporter is a sexist, racist, xenophobe, etc. Or that those who didn’t vote trump are liberal crybabies, like the world is a giant 4chan thread. There needs to be a maturity when dealing with something you disagree with. Unfortunately not every discourse can be this way. I guess my main point is that I don’t like this man but I will continue to advocate for my rights as a woman, along with the rights of those who are less privileged and have the risk of losing their own rights. I truly, truly, hope that once he is in office he understands the responsibilities and consequences that come with and that he acts accordingly. I hope for a peaceful future. I hope that things will be okay, and we won’t have to protest. I don’t believe he will be a good president, but I am hoping that he’ll be a conscientious one, a respecting one, one that understands that none of this is a game. Our opinions matter. Our lives are very real.
As for his actions in the past, I do, wholeheartedly believe that opinions can change, but this man’s character has absolutely not. He has constantly made sexist and degrading remarks against women. He has shown to be degrading towards minorities and disabled people. Actions speak louder than words, I don’t care to hear his reasoning because it doesn’t take long to recognize bad behavior in somebody, and the apologies are just him trying to save his own a$$. He is unprofessional, brash, and crude. He does not think before he speaks, and while other people find that “refreshing” and “new” I find it worrisome. I am afraid that he’ll say something that will ruin this country. Especially when dealing with other people in positions of power, you need to watch your words carefully. Remember, this is the same man who denied Obama’s original birth certificate, and demanded more. The man who demanded that Obama release his school records to “prove” he had the grades good enough for an Ivy League. The man who said that he had found someone to claim that Obama had been born in Kenya, and not Hawaii. And this was all because Obama was black. This was blatant racism. Racism to a man who served as senator for many years, and absolutely had the credentials to run for president.
Personally, I do not like Donald Trump. I'm not as progressive as other people I know, I try not to care for politics because frankly, I am not invested in them and I don't know enough to argue for hours on end about what politicians have done what. But I know what Trump stands for and what his VP stands for. I voted Clinton but I don't like her much either, however I don't view her as much as a threat as I view Trump: the man the KKK, Kim Jong Un, and Putin have endorsed. I hate that this man, with ZERO political experience has won office over a woman with years and years on her record. I hate that people are trying to say that he'll be the next Reagan, a man who served as governor of California before presidency. And that people are comparing them because they had different career choices before presidency. The way that I see Trump's interest in politics is that he has already done so much business wise, why shouldn't he run for president? What could give him MORE power, MORE publicity. And so that's what he has done over the years. He never looked into anything else but presidency. And i get that it's the top of the latter among politics, but I believe his passion was more for how he would be seen more than if he actually cares about this country. Compared to Hillary who has time and time again shown that she is capable of being a member of office. Yes, she has made some terrible mistakes. She is not my ideal candidate but I have not doubted once that she cares about the people here.
