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Round 1 - EM Debate

Maldito
about 8 years

Welcome to Epicmafia's First Debate Competition!

Your wonderful judges for this competition will be Mindful, Denial, and Jeff.

There will be 7 questions over the course of the competition, but not every team will make it to answer all 7!

Here's how it will work:

The first 3 rounds will essentially be a free for all mass debate chaos. Teams will be given a timeline of when their cases are to submitted to a judge, when the cases will be posted in the round thread, and how long they will have to debate within the thread. Once all cases have been submitted, myself, Denial, and Mindful will post the cases in the thread and give everyone an hour before the thread will be unlocked. Once the thread is unlocked it will be your job for the next 24 hours to comment on the other cases. You can use this time to attack other cases, point out flaws in them, defend your own case from other's attacks, and overall just debate the topic. After 24 hours, the thread will be locked and you will all be given 2 rest days before another question will be given. During these rest days the 3 judges will read the thread and assign every team a score of 1-10 based off how well their case was, how well they defended it, and how well they attacked the opposing stance.

This will happen for 3 rounds.

After 3 rounds, every team will be given a ranking. Teams will be ranked 1-10. The top 6 teams automatically move on to the final 8 and the other 4 teams will face off in a 1 vs 1 PLAY IN battle (7th vs 10th, 8th vs 9th) to see which two also will advance to the final 8.

Once the final 8 is reached, teams will be placed in a bracket and face off in a knock out style 1 vs 1 battle (1 vs Lower Ranked Play-in advancer, 2 vs Higher Ranked Play-in advancer, 3 vs 6, 4 vs 5)

One team will emerge victorious from the bracket and be named Epicmafia's Greatest Debate Team!

http://pastebin.com/SCFgmCpg Rutab & xJuicy

http://pastebin.com/812SHLbC Tatami and Sincerely

http://pastebin.com/ibsV9Hkc Poser and Tartosis

http://pastebin.com/sjTU6sJt Stiffy&schutz

http://pastebin.com/VXED8hDe Arcbel and thecolonel

http://pastebin.com/jsJzvasJ Pamda and Xero

http://pastebin.com/EJM4yyc1 Blister and SweetnKind

http://pastebin.com/gKmvDkHN Bebop and Ponylove

http://pastebin.com/Q9gS842E Jack and Sims

3 TEAMS STILL HAVEN'T TURNED IN AND THEY WILL BE KEPT MUTED UNTIL THEY SUBMIT A SUBMISSION

Maldito
about 8 years
Locking this thread. We will get back at you shortly.
denial
about 8 years
this thread should be locked
johnreid
about 8 years
I have personally seen many users who are outside of the "well-known" or popular circle jerk players who have all endorsed Vilden as a great asset to the community.

Vilden mentored many users and even posted threads in the forums on how to scumread and other interesting guides.

Vilden is a player who cares about the site and new players learning the game of mafia.

As I explained in more detail in my initial posts, this site is run on community. Players like Vilden are the backbone of em whether you like it or not. Without more of these kind of players the site dies. Can we excuse him for a little foul language and insults? I think yes.
jack
about 8 years

Tartosis says

To respond to Jack's and Sims' argument, vilden's accumulation of vios in the past doesn't imply that he would accumulate many vios in the future were he to be unbanned. Almost all of the HC vios vilden has received in the past would be no vios under today's jurisdiction, so his previous behavior does not prove that he would constantly break rules in the future.


this is patently incorrect, he literally has 5 active HC violations which were all given under the current admin team.

he was given leniency before in the form of a leash and he broke it, thus proving your point wrong and showing why the mod team should show some strength and stick to a ban for once
johnreid
about 8 years
The last thing I would like to address is something that has come up a few times. The changes in the HC rules lately has become a lot more relaxed (and in my opinion more reasonable). I think this does have some relevance to Vildens situation. Some of Vilden's violations may have been treated with more leniency under the new rule set. If the moderators are open minded enough to change the HC rule for the better, they should also be open minded to leniency for past punishment under the old ruleset.
johnreid
about 8 years
Sure, Vildens actions were inexcusable and wrong. I am the first one to advocate punishment. However I do believe that punishment should not be in excess and leniecy goes a long way. We have seen in the past many users given early unban dates and leashes. There is also the option of an early lobby unban with a remaining forum suspension as discussed by other debaters. I am not here to do the moderators jobs and I do not suggest a specific punishment plan, however I am of the opinion that an early unban date will be beneficial for all. Indefinite site bans, should be reserved for people who only seek to use the site with malicious intent.

There is a very real and strong argument against Vilden's unban due to his repeated bypassing and further discrepancies. I do think we can see this in another light. The fact that Vilden continually is trying to bypass and speak his mind, shows his care and loyalty to the site. This is a man who clearly wants to be a part of this game and community. I for one think an early unban date, conditional on a leash and no further bypassing is reasonable.

I am a strong believer in the philosophy that "two wrongs do not make a right." That being said, it must be mentioned that a lot of Vilden's actions were not completely unprovoked, that is to say many of his comments were retaliation and "in the heat of the moment things". I am certainly not condoning retaliation to insults and harassment, however I do believe this is a mitigating factor. Vilden's "victims" are not blameless and perhaps even instigated some of the negativity.
johnreid
about 8 years
Okay well i've been subbed in at a late hour and did not have time to properly prepare an argument and rebuttals.

I suppose I should still make my entrance into this debate. I am arguing for the unbanning of Vilden.

I would like to make a quick summary of my thoughts on the topic in place of a formal argument in pastebin.

None of us can deny that Vilden has broken rules and deserves to be punished. However the question is whether his lengthy ban from both lobby and forums is justified and not excessive. I would argue that it is excessive.

The strongest argument for Vilden's unban rests on the fact that he has a greater positive influence on the site than the actions leading to his ban might suggest.

Epic Mafia as you know is not a flourishing site with thousands or even hundreds of new users. Long gone are the times where new users would make up the majority of the player base, the site is simply no longer in its growth stage.

This is not to say that EM is no longer viable and worthwhile. EM is predominantly a community of players who have loyally stuck by the site and continued to play together. This community is comparatively very close, with regards to similar online game sites. The site continues to operate, due to the experienced and loyal players who make up this community.

Whether you like him or not, Vilden is undeniably a part of this community. Vilden is widely known by the frequent users of the site and a competent competitive mafia player. If this site is to extend its life further and prolong its inevitable demise, we need to hold on to players like Vilden. A player who cares about the site and genuinely wishes to play and participate in a community should not be banished for lengthy periods.
Tartosis
about 8 years
To respond to Jack's and Sims' argument, vilden's accumulation of vios in the past doesn't imply that he would accumulate many vios in the future were he to be unbanned. Almost all of the HC vios vilden has received in the past would be no vios under today's jurisdiction, so his previous behavior does not prove that he would constantly break rules in the future.

You say that keeping vilden banned upholds the integrity of the ban, but in the same paragraph cite instances of arguably lenient unbannings that happened around the time of vilden's ban. The biggest threat to the mod team's reputation is inconsistency, so your reasoning would support unbanning vilden with the same leniency other users were given around that time.
deletedabout 8 years

xxerox says

Can Arcbell be disqualified?

He is trolling way too much, and I can't tolerate it.



Agreed.
jack
about 8 years

thecolonel says


jack says

i haven't read anything but vilden's a turd and should stay banned


This is a misconception perpetuated by the likes of closeted turds Jeff and Dyl. We've refuted it more times than I can count.


i think the situation we've got here is a classic t.v.t., turd v turd. they're all turds and just try to paint the opposition as a bigger turd
thecolonel
about 8 years

xxerox says

Can Arcbell be disqualified?

He is trolling way too much, and I can't tolerate it.



No.
Tatami
about 8 years
Well the actual difference is that back in the day, there were a lot of people interested in trophying, and there was not any real certainty who was going to side with whom beyond close friends and partners. there were a lot more players just slurring others randomly, because trophying overlapped. people just made insults or hateful slurs in-game, based on who they were playing with and also what was said. the groups were formed in-game, not in skype lobbies, etc.

now that the attempts at hateful comments have moved outside the game, however, it is much more coordinated and less of a free-for-all. nothing will probably take us back to that point, because it was just a matter of time until hateful comments in the game got more sophisticated, but if you encourage friend slurs, etc, then you do have the chance of groups joining lobbies without realizing one person is throwing hateful comments for the other side despite claiming otherwise.

in other words, softly allowing hateful comments basically tells players it is ok to break their hateful commenting rings to hate on someone else, b.c no one is going to call them out on it etc or rat them out. theres nothing to rat out, its just standard play.

i mean it literally is an aspect to the game, as many of you like to subtly imply (cough pranay).

also i will take our oppositions's lack of reply as affirmation and that this policy is now in effect, since confirming it is in effect would forfeit the point of quietly just permitting it.

so go be ableist and prosper, everyone. that means you, vilden.
xxerox
about 8 years
Can Arcbell be disqualified?

He is trolling way too much, and I can't tolerate it.
thecolonel
about 8 years
I can't wait.
swan
about 8 years
Locking this thread in two hours - 10PM EST!
thecolonel
about 8 years

jack says

i haven't read anything but vilden's a turd and should stay banned


This is a misconception perpetuated by the likes of closeted turds Jeff and Dyl. We've refuted it more times than I can count.
jack
about 8 years
i haven't read anything but vilden's a turd and should stay banned
Maldito
about 8 years
Jack and Sims has submitted their submission. They're now unmuted. http://pastebin.com/Q9gS842E
Rutab
about 8 years

poser says

Dear Debaters,

Congratulations, you got a reaction from me. That's what you wanted, right? Well, I've decided I don't like people like you. You've messed with the community of the wrong psychopath. Before you get excited, you haven't even made me angry. I am a hard person to make angry. However, I despise people like you.

Your pitiful arguing skills are hilarious. Drawing prison gRape and posting up h1tler jokes are level 1. Can you manipulate stubborn people? Can you make a point and actually drive it home? Your silly little "leader" swan won't protect you. I've argued to unban people and spied on the admins for years because of it. I've hacked into accounts to unban people. I have been debating since I had a computer. It's what I was raised to do.

You have no idea to the extent of fear which you should be feeling. All you are is just a community of toxic creeps. Have you ever called someone the R word? I have no empathy and I will probably feel joy giving you the inevitable HC violation when any of you cross the line vaguely.

You think I'm giving you an empty threat? Believe that. I have arcbell in dark places that you don't want to know about. If you appeal even close to a time I'm online you will regret it.

Argue against me if you want to, but I am smart enough to use good arguments. Give up if you want, but it'll just make it easier for me to pity you and inevitably track you.

With love,

Poser

P.S. I would fear for your arguments while you still have your fingers


DIDNT READ
poser
about 8 years
Dear Debaters,

Congratulations, you got a reaction from me. That's what you wanted, right? Well, I've decided I don't like people like you. You've messed with the community of the wrong psychopath. Before you get excited, you haven't even made me angry. I am a hard person to make angry. However, I despise people like you.

Your pitiful arguing skills are hilarious. Drawing prison gRape and posting up h1tler jokes are level 1. Can you manipulate stubborn people? Can you make a point and actually drive it home? Your silly little "leader" swan won't protect you. I've argued to unban people and spied on the admins for years because of it. I've hacked into accounts to unban people. I have been debating since I had a computer. It's what I was raised to do.

You have no idea to the extent of fear which you should be feeling. All you are is just a community of toxic creeps. Have you ever called someone the R word? I have no empathy and I will probably feel joy giving you the inevitable HC violation when any of you cross the line vaguely.

You think I'm giving you an empty threat? Believe that. I have arcbell in dark places that you don't want to know about. If you appeal even close to a time I'm online you will regret it.

Argue against me if you want to, but I am smart enough to use good arguments. Give up if you want, but it'll just make it easier for me to pity you and inevitably track you.

With love,

Poser

P.S. I would fear for your arguments while you still have your fingers
Arcbell
about 8 years
Hey man I've got connections in banned users jail
deletedabout 8 years

Rutab says

You fell for the trap!!!!!! Now you have to ban yourself because you have account connections to a banned user

We beat Arcbell's team by default


Arcbell
about 8 years

Rutab says

You fell for the trap!!!!!! Now you have to ban yourself because you have account connections to a banned user

We beat Arcbell's team by default


Vilden isn't a banned user though, because our side had already won.
thecolonel
about 8 years
I never said anything about an online environment. Are you starting to sweat? Do you regret agreeing to Debate Me? You're imagining things. You should take a nap.

Saying that bad behavior sends revenue away is wrong. Controversy drives activity. That's one of the basic principles of web design. Who has vilden made leave? Jeff's staying here until he dies or until EM dies. vilden isn't going to change that. Do you think that if someone stops playing mafia because they get called a bad word in-game they were ever going to stick around anyway?
Arcbell
about 8 years

xJuicy says

ITT nobody provides a solid argument as to why vilden should be unbanned.